As many who read this know I am a member of this site named @protagonize. Protag (as we call it) is a collaborative writing site, what that means is it’s a place to come together with other authors and create truly amazing bits of writing. Some authors have gone on to have books published like Tasha Noble with her Paddytum story (which topped the protag charts for eons). Those who have known me for a while will already be aware of the content of this post as I’ve talked about it before.
A conversation I had with a dear friend I met on the site shortly after I joined put everything into the forefront for me again so I felt compelled to write this post. To be honest reader, this post isn’t totally for you, mostly it’s for me to work through some things in my brain and how I feel about protag.
See, when I first joined I was really intimidated. The majority of the authors were older than me, and they were all far more talented. I debated for days about joining a collaboration for fear that I would mess it up. My first several posts were solo stories. And, in fact, my first attempt at a collab, I messed up!
In a story by G2 she included the following Author’s Guidance for her story “A Touch of Madness”
I want you to imagine that society has deemed the creative and/or intelligent unfit to be a part of society. That the creative/intelligent folks need to be “put away” somewhere, somehow. What happens to the creative folks? Preferably, I’d like this to fit you; in other words, you should think about this from either your “self-self” perspective or your “Protag-self” perspective. But you can change it up if you want, I really don’t mind.
She wrote a story of extended guidance as her introduction and by then I decided to just go ahead and jump into the story! MAN I was nervous! Turned out, she had in mind a series of shorts, rather than the intro to a continuous collab that I wrote. Right away when I found out I replaced my post with:
******************** Coming Soon *********************
On account of Asheyna’s inability to follow directions.
*********************************************************
And apologized for messing up her story. But the idea, the idea was cool, and the dear friend I mentioned earlier? He thought so too. So, instead of being disrespectful and hijacking her story I started a new one called Free Your Mind and unleashed a monster.
The journey I went through while that story topped the Hot Stories charts and its descent into chaos outlines all of the issues I’ve had with collaborative writing. It began with a few people posting often. We would follow on each other’s coat tails, writing about the previous chapter and had developed a really neat flow to the story. Then, slowly, the story started to devolve. People were so anxious to jump aboard the “hot story” they disregarded Author’s Guidance, comments, notes and critiques. Anyone who knew me during that time probably got a bit of my pulling my hair out while ranting about this or that. (Many thanks btw, for those who kept me sane and kept with the original story).
Free Your Mind grew to an amazing (and at the time record-breaking) 124 chapters. And for the most part each chapter was well thought out, interesting, and kept the story moving. The authors attempted to work together to maintain continuity and I furiously attempted to keep the Guidance updated so as to make their job easier. But, alas, it died out, much to my relief at the time. The direction the story was heading when it died was so far from what we, the few core authors, had envisioned at the beginning. Much appreciation to darkliquid, Archi, G2, Robynn, Dru, Kaiser, Afroferret and Faltarego for a seriously amazing story.
So what did the mess that FYM was teach me? Collaboration is HARD! Even harder without respect, yes respect. That’s what it’s about in my mind. My creations are dear to me, characters live in my head like friends and every time I sit down to write I refuse to put up anything I’m not proud of. I work hard at my craft, striving always to be even better than I was before. I welcome critiques, even if at the time they hurt my feelings. Let’s face it, we all want to hear our work is perfect and without fault… the truth is, it’s not. The comments and critiques help me get better. It’s been just over a year since I joined Protagonize and I can honestly say I’ve grown in all areas.
Without Protag I never would have met so many dear friends. The friendships I’ve begun alone make the experience (however trying at times) worth it. Through them I heard about this crazy thing called NaNoWriMo and never would have written my first novel. My writing has, in my mind, improved; largely through challenging myself to tackle stories that weren’t necessarily my style. Like a double dactyl poem called Bardishly Speaking or fanfiction like A Squib at Hogwarts? (thanks faltarego for that btw) or my latest crazy project which is both morally and ethically challenging, Ten. Before Protag I wrote little bits and pieces, messing about with ideas generally along the same lines and often with main characters who oddly enough resembled me quite strongly.
Writing is about growing, none of us are perfect, although I’ve met some authors whose craft is pretty damn close. Whether we’re a teenager exploring what this whole “being an author” thing is about, or a seasoned writer aiming for that illustrious goal of getting our first book published… we all need to grow. And that is what Protagonize was all about for me. Approaching every story with a touch of reverence, a dab of respect, and a healthy dose of fear that everything was about to go horribly wrong.
That all sounds a bit like a eulogy doesn’t it? In a way it is. I’m mourning the loss of a dear friend while its evil twin is mocking me all the while. The old Protagonize is gone, and it will never be the same. It has the potential to grow into something better, the incredible @NickB has some changes planned for the site such as groups (which have been implemented) and stories restricted to these groups which can be made invite only, and a very cool interface for editors to scout out new talent.
Is it too late? I had a publisher email me recently and one of the things that came out of our conversation was her impression that Protagonize was a site mainly for the early teen crowd and didn’t have much in the way of mature talent. This was underlined once again for me when @Papablue posted the following thread:
Anyone here is the legal drinking age? At first glance, everyone seems to be in high school.
Any … adults on Protagonize or just kids young writers?
And then his follow up later:
Well, the old guys should be more active in the stories also! Or am I just looking in the wrong places?
What are old people writing about these days?
Come on, old people, gather ’round.
So, Papablue, my answer is this: We aren’t really all that active any more. At least this “adult” (I’m not old and I’m barely an adult lol) isn’t. Why? Because I feel like I’ve been beaten out. You know when you have this awesome spot and then one person starts kinda inching their way in, and then more, and then a whole crowd. And before you even realize what was happening you’re standing WAAAY over there watching all these people trash your spot?
I’ve tried getting involved, I’ve tried working with the younger crowd, helping them to grow as a writer. I’ve spent time reading their posts and giving them helpful tips while trying not to scream. Offered suggestions for minor changes to help their contributions actually work within the story. I’ve yet to have one of them take it with any sort of appreciation. Reactions range from: “im just havin fun lolololololol” to out and out sulking. Two things to say to that:
A) If you’re just having fun, don’t ASK FOR COMMENTS!!!
B) If you want to write as part of a proper collaborative team people are going to have critiques and suggests for you, that’s sort of the point. All of us working together in order to get better. If this is not something you’re interested in, don’t join.
That last comment may make me seem like an elitist or that I’m trying to be cliquey, and I am and I’m not. I will write with anyone willing to learn and grow as a writer. I’m far from perfect and even recently have had comments on what I’ve written in order to make it better, including my pet peeve…. continuity issues.
So now I’m torn. I’m banging my head against a brick wall and the only thing it’s doing is giving me a headache. Until this morning I had been content to leave Protagonize behind me and move onto other things. The most recent series of events on there had completely soured me on the site. Then Monty came along with his comments, thoughts and opinions and he’s got me rethinking it.
The way I see it I’m left with few options. I can post things on Protagonize that I don’t care of someone comes along and destroys, but that’s not my style. I care deeply about everything I write. So then is the answer to become an elitist? Make a flat out policy that I don’t collab at all? Or turn cliquey, and refuse to write with anyone outside of a select few?
I don’t have the answers and am open to thoughts and comments from anyone willing to give me a moment of their time.
Thanks for listening,
Ash
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Any chance of Nick being able to create a check box to allow people to indicate whether their story is just for fun or for critique? (with the default being just for fun)
I know for myself, I tend to comment only on the stories that specifically ask for critique. They’re feedback has been really gratifying for me as an editor and fellow writer. Which is why I love this website.
Don’t lose hope!!
Hi Sue! Wow you read my blog, cool!! Lol. Nick has added the ability to deactivate ratings on a story, so if a person wants to just write for fun without any feedback/ratings they can.
The problem is this: many young writers want the 5-star ratings from their friends to push them all to the “Top Rated Authors” list. We’ve seen several cases of writers “gaming the system” as it were.
My issue is less with them (although sometimes looking at the Top Rated Author list makes me really sad, its better than it used to be!) and more with:
- the writers that will hijack other stories and then get sulky/rude when given comments and critiques
- those that ask for comments and get angry when suggestions are given!
It’s hard not to give up hope… I’m trying, really really trying. But I don’t think Protagonize can be both a social site for young writers wanting to have fun AND a site for serious authors to collaborate. Eventually it will become one or the other, and I think I know which way it’s going… I just don’t know how to stop it.
I can relate to a number of things that you mentioned especially the intimidation, I still haven’t joined a collab for that reason xD Another – smaller – part is how much uninteresting stuff I have to wade through to find one to be intimidated by.
I vote be cliquey; this way you know you’ll be working with other authors that are up to your level of respect, won’t pout about a comment here or there and are willing to get better.
I do wish the ‘young’ authors, or whatever, would put to use the crits they get. It’s sad for me when I find a story that could be good but the author doesn’t use the advice they get to make it better or even worth reading to give a critique. At times I get frustrated and don’t bother to read at all.
I’m weary when anyone posts/says they’re open to criticism, it’s usually not what they really mean. I’ve had people get upset about my crit which is why I’m always tentative to post long ones. One guy was upset with me when I kept asking for any descriptions of his characters after four, long chapters. We just have to pray for these kinda folks.
DON”T LEAVE PROTAG! You’ll Break My heart T_T
Hi Rachelle,
I took a read through your post and while I do agree with some of it, I do think that there are a few things to keep in mind.
(1) First off, I don’t write the site content — you guys do. If the “older” (i.e. 21+) crowd stops writing, that’s just going to give an even greater impression that the kids are left ruling the roost, because they’re the only ones actively participating. I don’t know if that attitude (of quitting because folks are feeling “outnumbered”) is really something that I want to encourage by punishing the others.
(2) The only other things I can do to move the more “I’m just having fun lolz” kids off into their own area is to completely segregate the site by not having any general activity streams, and making everything friend/fan and group based, kinda like Flickr does. The site’s volume and user-base were definitely not large enough to do this in the past, and I think it’s borderline now. I’m mildly afraid that will clobber any sense of community the site originally had, though, because new users may feel isolated almost from the get-go.
(3) I’m working on finishing off groups, which will allow you guys to write in peace without any non-group members interfering. Once that’s done, I’m sure you won’t run into this sort of issue anymore. I just haven’t really had the time to sit down and finish it until now, it’s a pretty complex undertaking.
(4) I have gotten some amazing feedback from teachers, especially recently, who are getting their students onto Protagonize and have found that the ones writing on the site are doing much better in their writing classes. This is not something I want to lose by beginning to cater only to a specific sub-group within the community.
One note, though: the naysaysers need to at least make the effort to play nice with the kids, here. I’d be a lot happier with constructive feedback and suggestions rather than a laundry list of complaints. I’m one guy trying to run a community of over 12,000 writers of various caliber, largely free of charge, and it’s tough to deal with if no one is willing to actually step forward and say “I’m going to take a leadership role here and help out.”
I’ve seen a lot of positive comments from the younger crowd looking for mentors, critical feedback, etc. In terms of upcoming changes, I’m tempted to put the option on every story to set a “this is the type of feedback I’m looking for” option as @darkliquid suggested a couple of months back. Right now, people are way too touchy in their responses and that may just be a writer thing.
On a personal note, being a developer first and not a writer, I’m used to people telling me my work sucks and what I need to improve, so maybe I just have thicker skin than most. This blog post is a perfect example of what I have to deal with, heh.
In any case, I’m obviously listening, and I’m aware that there are folks out there feeling left by the wayside as the site grows. At the same time, I don’t want to suddenly get rid of all of the kids (or stop letting them in) as they will eventually grow into better, more mature writers. I’m not going to tell them to “bugger off” because a minority on the site are tired of hearing them.
Instead, I’d like for folks to focus on proactive solutions and try and help me to steer where the site will go — this is what I’ve been doing in the Beta group, and there are a number of authors who have been very helpful there with suggestions and ideas. I’d like to see more of that kind of constructive discussion in there if possible.
This is not an issue that I can “flick a switch” and change dramatically, unfortunately — as the community evolves and grows, there’s almost always someone who’s going to be dissatisfied. Making everyone (somewhat) happy is what I’m striving towards.
Cheers,
-nick / protagonize
Nick,
As I said in my message to you I am in no way blaming you nor do I mean any disrespect. I can appreciate what a hard job it is for you to manage the site and this post was more directed at the Protagonize users and the direction they are taking it rather than you, the creator.
Maybe I’ve just had bad experiences with the few young authors that I’ve run into on the site. None of them seem to be looking to seriously grow and mature as writers and are extremely resistant to comments/suggestions when offered. That being said I am aware of a *few* younger authors that are fantastic.
Groups are great, and perhaps things will improve when they are implemented… but that will inevitably lead to cliques. In one point you say you don’t want to isolate new users, then go on to say we’ll be able to form groups to close others off from writing with us. Those seem to be two counter-productive goals.
I don’t think anyone is asking you to cater to sub-groups (however: allowing us to have groups to write in will be enable us to write in peace with only those we chose but to me that seems like shuffling us off into a corner so that the site itself can be taken over by the teeny-bopper crowd) Special attention certainly wasn’t the intention of my post. To be honest, you seemed to have missed it in your rush to defend the site.
This post was not a laundry list of complaints, and I have attempted many times to make nice with younger writers on the site. My post was about remembering what Protag was, and musing on the difficulties of collaborative writing. My only complaint is the lack of any desire to grow as writers from the majority of the users that dominate the site. This is not your fault, merely an observation.
However I find your response really disheartening. I’ve offered several times in the past to do whatever I could to help with the site. But to be honest your response to any comments, observations and thoughts I’ve had regarding the site has felt like a dismissal. In your desire not to cater to any group the mature authors are being pushed aside. Slowly they are dropping off the site as the younger writers take over and I feel as if I have lost any voice that perhaps I once had.
Respectfully,
Asheyna
Asheyna,
I’m really sorry you feel that way, but by telling me to start “catering to one group or the other”, you’re effectively telling me that I need to cut out at least 50% of my community, either way. That’s not a way to run any kind of operation, let alone a community that’s grown and thrived as much as this one.
Are you suggesting I just close the door to anyone under 21? Should I just separate the whole site into a “kiddie pool” and a backstage lounge for the “mature” folks? I don’t think either of those approaches are going to have a positive outcome.
In any case, I’m at a loss as to what you *are* actually suggesting. I’m hearing a whole lot of negative feedback, but nothing constructive or anything that I can actually act on.
It’s awesome that you have strong feelings about the site, one way or another, but I’m not going to be able to make the kind of changes you’re asking for simply by making structural changes to the site. This is actually going to involve action on both your part, the group of “mature” writers that you belong to, and from the younger authors.
I’m not going to force people to leave the site, but I’m also not going to force them to stay if they really feel like the only solution is to leave. What I’m suggesting here is that maybe you try a different tact, come at the issues you’re seeing from a different angle, and try to be constructive.
I’ve posted a new topic in the beta group for this discussion. All I ask is that you please contribute any kind of feedback and suggestions you have there.
Thanks,
-nick
Hey,
Saw this through Twitter, the words ‘RIP Protagonize’ were enough to make me click through!
I’m hoping this will get through ‘cuz I’m having to post it from my phone.
Anyway- being under 21, I would be one of the many (god forbid it ever happens) to be thrown off. I like to think of myself as more intellectual than others my age, and I know what you’re talking about in terms of the younger authors.
Some of them use the site as: ‘lul I’m here for a laff. Love all my friends- you know who you are baybeez! Luvs xxxxxx’
Ahem, I apologize.
Some of them are just plain annoying, but my point is, it’s not just black and white. I feel as though my age would automatically bung me in with the… Tweens.
I find that they’re a bearable nuisance at the moment, and the groups will do wonders to the site, I’m sure.
It will become a problem for me when Protag becomes a Bieber fan site.
Once again, I apologize for any spelling errors or grammatical errors- my phone won’t let me read this back!
Thanks again,
Charlie Roberts.
I actually see everyone’s point. Wow, that sounds… Well, kinda sad.
I honestly agree with you, Ash. The young ones that are just “their 4 a laff” (uhmm, UGH) seem to outnumber the ones actually there to write anymore.
But, also being part of the under-21 group, I agree with Nick that it just wouldn’t be fair to seperate +21 and -21 on the site.
Like Charlie, I find that the teeny-boppers are a *bearable* nuisance — at the time being. I do like I would if I were in school with these people — treat them fairly, but don’t pay them much attention. Clique-y it may be, but it keeps the little sanity that I have.
I think the other part where it doesn’t really bother me all that much is that I have posted in one single story collab — I’m more of a loner
I still love Protagonize, because it’s the best writers’ site I’ve found — writers.com or writing.com (whatever the hell it is!) drives me absolutely insane.
Sorry for the novel of a pretty much irrelevant comment
–Marissa
Charlie and Marissa,
I do not at ALL think the answer is to remove the younger crowd from the site. Nor have I ever suggested to divide the site along age lines. If anyone thinks that was my intention I apologize and then urge them to reread my blog post.
While the teen crowd was a nuisance when they kept to themselves I held my tongue (mostly). When they stuck to their thing and left me to do mine that was fine. True it meant quality works got shunted off to the side and were hard to find amidst the drivel. But hey, I could deal.
It’s when they tried to join the collabs and got sulky when given suggestions for how to improve, or worse, when they asked people for comments and then just laughed off the critiques. As I said in my blog, the only solutions are either to get mean with these people, get cliquey (which means isolating oneself from the community… not all bad but not without it’s problems), or leave.
To Everyone Else:
After reading the response to my blog both here and when nick linked to it over on one of the Protag discussion forums, I have decided to leave Protagonize.
The reason for this is mainly a comment which I received in private from one of the “higher ups” on Protag telling me to stop trashing the site on public forums such as Twitter.
I doubt I’ll be posting much on any other public writing site and will likely stick to using this blog as the main place to “make public” that which is in my brain. lol. I will be attempting to find a home for “A Squib at Hogwarts?”, odds are that will be fanfiction.net or some other such site.
Today sucked, to sum it all up. I really only posted this as a way to work through my thoughts and feelings about Protagonize and to ask if anyone has a creative solution to the problem. Instead it was taken as a whiny list of complaints and I’m left looking like the bad guy rather than someone who loves the site dearly and as reached her wits end trying to figure out what to do.
PS. And Marissa, I still love Protagonize too, I just don’t think there is a place for me there anymore.
Hey, Ash… I thought your post was interesting and well-thought-out. I’ve been less active on Protag lately as well, but that’s been more due to lack of time than anything else. I also tend to do more writing than reading when I’m on the site, again mostly because of the time thing, and also because reading long passages on my computer screen is not my favorite thing to do.
Having said that, I also recognize that there’s a lot of dreck on the site, and it’s hard to find the gems in amongst all that. That’s always been the case, but it’s even more the case now. I’ve not been terribly helpful to others on the site, once again because it’s a time commitment, and it’s also something that I want to do well if I do it at all, so I’ve been hesitant and occasional.
I’m sorry you’ve decided to leave the site. I hear what you’re saying, and I agree with much of it, but it’s still sad that it’s come to this for you. Mind you, you’ve been more active on the site lately than I have, so I haven’t encountered the amount of frustration you have (though I have encountered some, have no fear).
This is a very non-helpful comment I’m writing here. I’m going to think more about what you’ve written and come back to it again. It’s a big issue, and as an early Protag adopter, I feel a certain responsibility to weigh in, and to do so with all possible consideration and thoroughness.
But I don’t think we should stick up a headstone. I think there’s life in the old girl yet.
I’ll check in with you after I’ve mulled things over a bit. Maybe I can come with a suggestion or two for you.